Who Guards the Guardians? w/ Angie Hobbs (Republic III)
Following Socrates' claim that the ideal republic should be ruled by a class of "guardians," the question naturally arises: Who or what will keep these guardians in check? How do you prevent the government from becoming an unaccountable and oppressive regime?
Our exploration of Plato's Republic continues with this conversation on book 3 with Angie Hobbs, professor of the public understanding of philosophy at the University of Sheffield in England. She has written several books including Plato and the Hero, which touches on a lot of the topics we will be discussing today. Her latest book is a short guide to Plato’s Republic in the Ladybird Expert Series. Stay tuned at the end of this episode for a chance to win a copy of the book.
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Transcript of the episode's prologue:
"Who watches the watchmen?" That line was popularized in our pop culture by the graphic novel Watchmen, which spawned both a movie and a tv series. But that line goes back all the way to antiquity, where it is found in the poetry of the Roman satirist Juvenal. The original line reads, “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” or “Who will guard the guards themselves?” And while Juvenal was not talking about politics, it’s a question that every political regime and even every organization has to ask itself.
Organizations seem to work best when everyone is accountable. That usually requires oversight. But what do you do when you climb up the accountability ladder and get to a person or group that has no supervisors above them? Who guards the guardians? Who are our leaders accountable to? Who polices the police?
There are a bunch of memes online that will tell you that the phrase “Who guards the guardians?” is a direct quotation from Plato’s Republic. And that’s not literally true. The line never appears as such in Plato’s work. But the question is implied, and it is arguably the key question that drives the discussion from the end of book 2 through book 3.
As soon as Socrates and company agree that the ideal polis or republic that they are imagining will be ruled by a class of so-called guardians, the question naturally arises, Who or what will keep these guardians in check? How do you prevent the government from becoming an unaccountable and oppressive regime?
When the Founding Fathers of the United States were faced with the same question, the solution they came up with was a balance of powers. They designed a system with three branches of government, such that no one is supreme and each branch can be checked by the other two.
Socrates’ solution in the Republic is quite different. As we touched on in the last episode, for him, the way to keep the guardians in check is primarily through education. Thus, book 3 ends up being largely about outlining a new, radical system of education, that will produce a reliable, just, and incorruptible ruling class.
Since the cornerstone of ancient Greek education in the classical period was poetry, in particular the works of Homer and of the playwrights, Socrates and company spend a lot of time in book three discussing poetry and the theater and whether they are good or bad influences for the soul. As part of that discussion, Socrates presents a theory of art, sometimes called the theory of mimesis.
As you can see, and as was the case with the previous books, there’s a lot going on in book 3. So we’re going to do two episodes on it. In this one we’ll focus on the question, Who guards the guardians? And in the next one, we’ll explore the theory of mimesis.
My guest for both episodes is one of the great communicators of ancient philosophy in our time. Angie Hobbs is professor of the public understanding of philosophy at the University of Sheffield in England. She has written several books including Plato and the Hero, which touches on a lot of the topics we’ll be discussing today, and more recently, a short guide to Plato’s Republic in the Ladybird Expert Series. This little book is not only a fun read, but is also a work of art and has stunning illustrations of the most famous scenes described in the Republic. Stay tuned at the end of this episode for a chance to win a copy of the book.
In the following discussion, you will hear us talk about something called the noble lie. So let me just tell you what that is real quick, so you can follow the conversation when it comes up. At the end of book 3, Socrates suggests that the guardians should be told the following story from childhood. They should be told that they are all born of the earth and are thus brothers and sisters to each other. Moreover, each one of them has some combination of metals mixed into their souls, such that either gold, silver, bronze, or iron predominates. Those whose souls are mainly gold are truth-seekers. They are fit to rule, but they also should give up all their wealth because they already have gold in themselves, so they don’t need any more. Those with mainly silver souls desire honor above all things. They will be the soldiers and auxiliaries to the rulers. And those with predominantly bronze and iron in their souls desire money and pleasure above all else. They will form the working and commercial class of the city, but will not hold political power. This so-called myth of the metals together with the myth of autochthony, i.e. the story of being born from the earth, comprise what scholars commonly refer to as the noble lie.
Just to clarify, the metals are not strictly hereditary. If you are born of gold parents, that doesn’t mean you’re automatically a gold soul. You can be born of silver parents and end up bronze. You can be born of iron parents and turn out gold. The young will be tested to see if they predominantly value truth, honor, money, or pleasure, and each child will be classified accordingly, without their parentage affecting the outcome.
This story obviously raises tons of questions, issues, and concerns, and we’ll get to that later in the episode. For now, I’ll leave you with one interesting modern parallel. If you’ve ever sought career counseling, whether in college or later when considering a new career path, you’ve likely been given a Myers-Briggs personality test, which classifies all people into 16 temperaments, which in turn fall under 4 main personality types, each of which allegedly has a different primary goal in life: knowledge, recognition, pleasure, and security. These four types correspond quite closely to Plato’s gold, silver, bronze, and iron souls. Of course, the Myers-Briggs typology does not claim any hierarchy among the types, unlike Plato, for whom the gold are obviously the highest class. It’s nevertheless interesting that even today, we have a similar typology of temperaments that is used to guide people into different careers.
If you guys are interested in how the myth of metals relates to Myers Briggs and other modern mappings of personality types, let me know, and maybe I’ll do a bonus episode on that topic. And now, let’s dive in and explore book 3. Here’s my conversation with Angie Hobbs.